Even Christians admit that Jesus and his followers were wrong

I’ve been observing the discourse between followers of Jesus of Nazareth, the Nazarene, and those who reject his claims and those of his followers for reasons based on the Jewish Bible. I observed something striking that had been clearly stated by the followers of Nazarene:

There is no clear prophecy in the Jewish Bible that states that the promised anointed Davidic king called “the Moshiach” by the Jews would die and be resurrected according to the Jewish Bible. There is no clear explicit prophecy that clearly refers to this Davidic king that says that he would die, be in the grave for three days and three nights and return alive.

This is an important admission for a christian. Why? Because it contradicts what the Nazarene said. The following quotes are from the book “The grounds of Christianity examined: by comparing the New Testament with the Old”, written in 1813 by George Bethune, which Yvonne pointed me to. The book is now in public domain, available free online from places like Gutenberg or archive.org. The quotes are from the first chapter which discussed the fact that Jesus and his followers tried to prove their case from the Jewish Bible.

Again he discoursed to all his Disciples, putting them in mind, that, before his Death, he told them (Luke 24: 44, 46, 47,) that “all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms concerning him;” adding, “thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for Christ (1. e. the Messiah) to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; and that repentance, and remission of sins should be preached in his name, beginning at Jerusalem …”

Paul, when accused before Agrippa by the Jews, said (Acts 26; 6,) “I stand, and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers,” i.e. for teaching Christianity, or the true doctrine of the Old Testament, and to this accusation he pleads guilty, by declaring in the fullest manner, that he taught nothing but the Doctrines of the Old Testament. ” Having therefore (says he) obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small, and great saying now other things than those which the Prophets, and Moses did say should come, that the Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first who should rise from the Dead, and should show light unto the People, and unto the Gentiles.” The Author of the first Epistle to the Cor. says, 15 ch. v. 4, that “Jesus rose again from the dead the third day, according to the Scriptures …”

Take careful note. The new testament has the Nazarene and his followers claim that he was to raise from the dead after a specific amount of time. Peter and John claimed the songs of David predicted it.

But I said it once and I’ll say it again and it has been observed in the mouths of devout christians that I’ve seen discuss the issue thus contradicting the Nazarene, the disciples, and the other man, Paul of Tarsus, there is no clear and explicit text in the Jewish Bible where the text overtly refers only to the promised anointed Davidic king that says that this promised anointed one will die and be resurrected.

Whether a christian will try to use Psalm 16, the book of Jonah, or Isaiah 53, they each share the same problem: none of these even mention “messiah”, nor do they refer exclusively and explicitly to that future anointed one. Even the much used but much distorted Daniel 9 has no resurrection.

Whether christians admit it or not, let’s be plain: the Nazarene and his followers were wrong! The Jewish Bible doesn’t teach this part of their message, as with many other parts of their message. Once again, the Nazarene fails.

Remember, the Jewish Bible and its God still stand even if the new testament and the Nazarene fall. And there is still a way to live acceptable before God, Jew or Gentile, without the Nazarene to separate you from him. As he said to Israel, and the message is universal: return to God, and he will return to you!

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About hesedyahu

I'm a gentile living in UK, a person who has chosen to take upon himself the responsibility God has given to all gentiles. God is the greatest aspect of my life and He has blessed me with a family. I used to be a christian, but I learnt the errors of my ways. I love music. I love to play it on the instruments I can play, I love to close my eyes and feel the groove of it. I wrote my songs when I was single and not so happy and since I've been married, I haven't written as much. I guess that shows how happy and blessed I am. What else is there?
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23 Responses to Even Christians admit that Jesus and his followers were wrong

  1. Andrew says:

    A Christian with knowledge of the Scriptures would acknowledge prophecy of the resurrection. The fact that Jews discount the messianic nature of certain Psalms of David and passages from the Prophets makes discourse on the subject difficult, nigh impossible. Hashem has told us in the Scriptures that salvation comes from Him alone. How many times has he said and he said “I myself will come”, and he can be taken to fulfill what he has said. The Messiah is the true remnant and thus the true Israel- a nation unto himself, the only one who has not engaged in idolatry, the only true servant, and his suffering, death and resurrection are clear in the Scriptures to those who take the above as true.

    “I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.”

    How many passages in the Psalms come from a servant who gives praise to God for deliverance from death, and Sheol, and the pit? How many times do we read “O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol; you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.” The truth is that the Scriptures are rife with the image of the servant, standing alone in holiness, who is forsaken in the pit of death and then brought up and given life. This image was given flesh and fulfilled physically in the Nazarene, and in spirit in the lives of each of us who call upon the Name of The Lord, who have been restored from death into abundant life, and this by trusting that God was able to accomplish what he promised in the first.

    • David says:

      You claim a christian with knowledge would accept the prophecy of the resurrection. Experience says otherwise. It would seem more that christians with devotion to Jesus would accept those prophecies rather than those who are honest with the text of the Jewish Bible, especially of the Psalms. It’s not about Jews not counting it as a messianic prophecy. It is that the text itself says absolutely nothing clear and explicit about it only being a prophecy about the coming anointed Davidic king. The rest of what you say about the messiah being the true remnant and thus true Israel is just a baseless claim I don’t have to deal with. In fact the rest of what you say goes well with what I said in this article: there is no clear, overt, and exclusive mention of messiah in the whole of Psalm 16. Thanx for helping me prove my point. You can’t say that a verse in the Psalm says “this is about messiah” or something similar. You have to make logical derivations based on your worldview, not the text itself. Thank you!

      • Andrew says:

        It sounds like our experiences are disparate. Since you’ve spoken about your experience with Christians lets say this about my experience with faithful Jews: they have no faith that God can surprise them! The scriptures have not revealed the complete knowledge of God to you- how could they unless God is finite and completely knowable? It is with the Messiah that comes the knowledge of God to men. Ironically Jews, the practical people that they are, suppose that when the messiah comes into the world, all men will have knowledge of God, as though it happens in the snap of a finger? The blink of an eye? Or must men listen to the Messiah and hear his words, and then they will know God?

        You Jews claim: “God can not have done this, because he did not tell us he was going to do before hand,” as if you were the advisors of God. God told you many things he would do, some he has done and some he has yet to do. But they will all be done. I think we both can agree that he will do the things he has told us he will do, and he will not do the things he has told us he will not do. But this is a fallacy: “he will not do the things that he has not told us he will do.”

      • hesedyahu says:

        I had to laugh out loud at this blatant arrogance and presumptuousness. But what more can be expected? I’m glad your vacuous passage was honest in one way: not an ounce of scripture, not even a hair of it. That’s honest because it shows the baselessness of our arrogance.

        The faithfulness of the Jew is apparaent in the fact that while Gentiles believe that God is manifest in wood, or stone, or in a human being, the Jews always had a remnant remaining true to what the Torah said, not looking for the innovations on what the Torah tells them, not looking from spaces outside of its limits. They didn’t look for dead men to abolish God’s eternal law. They didn’t look for illegal “sacrifices”.

        Feel free to create your stories or hold fast to the failure, the man who failed not where the Jewish Bible was silent, but where it was explicit and clear. It’s not about what you call “faith to be suprised” (LOL, that was funny!) but about steadfastness to what was said and recorded.

        But I appreciate the laugh!

    • searchinmyroots says:

      Andrew,
      The question is as follows –
      Where in Tanach does it CLEARLY mention the following –
      “thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for Christ (1. e. the Messiah) to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; and that repentance, and remission of sins should be preached in his name, beginning at Jerusalem …” ????

      Not about a servant, but about a messiah. Or better yet, since most Christians believe Jesus to be G-d, where does it say that G-d will manifest Himself into a man that will suffer, be crucified, rise from the dead on the 3rd day and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in the name of this manifestation?

      While you are at it, can you also show me where it states that if we don’t accept this human manifestation, we are damned to what Christians believe is hell?

      Thank you.

      • Andrew says:

        Where in the Torah does it CLEARLY mention that it is against the law for a jew to have cream in his coffee if he also has steak in his omlette?

        When a jew reads the Torah, he says “God said this, but what he means is this,” but when he reads the Prophets he says “God can’t mean that, because it’s not what he said.” If you can’t see that double standard here, then you’re blinded by arrogance and wouldn’t recognize Messiah if he came to teach you himself.

      • hesedyahu says:

        Your statement about “if I don’t see the double standard” is fallacious. You offer two different types of text, legal and prophetical, and then make a fallacious argument that they must be treated and used in the same way. Since the argument is fallacious, as its basis is faulty, then I don’t have to concern myself with the faulty conclusion that follows it, which in itself logically wrong because there are many other conclusions than the one you stated. I would say keep trying but you’re wasting your time and time is a precious commodity.

      • Andrew says:

        Everything with which you disagree is “fallacious.” Most of your responses (not just to me, but to any dissenter) are ad hominim, sarcastic, intentionally offensive, and made in a mocking tone. The reason that I continue to comment on your posts (as I have been subjecting myself to this distasteful business for some time now), is that I know visitors to your site who are truly seeking community and knowledge of God will see that you are offering neither with your book or this website. Thank you for continuing to make this work productive and fruitful.

      • hesedyahu says:

        I’m sad for you that you believe my words contain personal attacks. Thankfully I know myself and my words well enough to know that you spoke an outright lie. Thanks for at least providing evidence about your character. In a world where lies are acceptable, the truth is offensive. So being offensive in and of itself is not the issue. Where it comes to intent, since you don’t know me, I’ll take that as another act of presumption from you. Yes, sometimes I’m sarcastic. I’ll admit to that one heartily. Yes sometimes I have a mocking tone too. Thanks for pointing that out. You have your opinion. You choose to remain. I won’t say or do much else. What is here, people will peruse and judge for themselves. Not much more to say than that.

  2. butibo says:

    Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations;the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they hadnot heard shall they consider. Isaiah 26:19 thy dead men shall live,together with my dead body shall they arise.Zechariah 12:10and they shall look upon whom they have pierced.Psalm 15: 9 – 11,Dan 7:14

    • hesedyahu says:

      Thanx for agreeing with my article.

      • Andrew says:

        I think actually he’s demonstrating that he disagrees with your article, since he seems to be a Christian and is stating his belief that the Scriptures show that the Messiah did indeed have to suffer, which is a contradiction of your statement that (I paraphrase) “even Christians don’t believe that Scriptures show that Messiah had to suffer.”

      • hesedyahu says:

        It matters little what you think of what he’s doing if you’re not the person making the point. He is able to speak for himself. And actually the only way he’s being a christian having that belief would contradict the title of my article is of I had said “All christians admit such and such”. I didn’t so your point is again fallacious.

  3. AJ Castellitto says:

    The NT is fulfillment but I fear you are establishing your own criteria….. Jesus might not be explicit enough for you, and I understand. I don’t come as an enemy. But I’m not a Jew, so I will probably seem ignorant. But all throughout the OT it’s pretty clear God’s own we’re often on the side of rebellion…. But your return is awaiting….. 35 “This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’ [i] is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

    Israel Rebels Against God

    37 “This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel,[j] ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.’ [k]

    38 “This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, 39 whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, 40 saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’[l] 41 And they made a calf in those days, offered sacrifices to the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42 Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets:

    ‘Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness,
    O house of Israel?
    43 You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
    And the star of your god Remphan,
    Images which you made to worship;
    And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.’[m]
    God’s True Tabernacle

    44 “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46 who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built Him a house.

    48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:

    49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
    And earth is My footstool.
    What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
    Or what is the place of My rest?
    50 Has My hand not made all these things?’[n]
    Israel Resists the Holy Spirit

    51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

    Stephen the Martyr

    54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

    57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    • hesedyahu says:

      You know, for such a substantial piece of copy-pasting, all that you say is wholly irrelevant to the article. Because of that, I don’t really have to add much more than that, do I?

      • AJ Castellitto says:

        I think you have a formulaic way of making your case…. Which is fine but I think we have to be wholly open & discerning ….. If you say Jesus is not who He is, you should be to rigid with the parameters of your theory I would think

      • hesedyahu says:

        As you cannot let go of the Nazarene, then you neither understand my “theory”, nor my way of thinking. I do not have to be “open” but rather faithful to God’s foundational revelation as recounted in the Torah. It is faithfulness to that bedrock as well as my ability to read which helps me to see the deep and severe flaws on the worldview of one who thinks the Nazarene was a viable messiah candidate

    • AJ Castellitto says:

      Jewish Brethren, I also don’t see how you can deny Isaiah 53…. I know you have an explanation but it seems pretty forced to me….. In light of the NT it fits perfectly as part of the greater Biblical narrative

      • hesedyahu says:

        I don’t know who you are talking to, but I’ll respond. Isaiah 53 has no overt mention of an anointed Davidic king, and all mentions of a “servant” before it refers to the nation of Israel. So we don’t need to force anything. It is you that forces your failed candidate into it when it is irrelevant to him.

  4. Carolyn Brunt says:

    Hi James. I have just purchased your book via Amazon.
    I do indeed agree with much that you have written but there is a statement you keep repeating which is quite erroneous.
    Namely you contend that ALL Christians n’s state that Jesus is god.
    This is totally incorrect. I suspect that you are influenced by your experience in your father’s church.
    I put it to you that the doctrine you are expressing is of the ” oneness. ”
    This is a false doctrine only believed by a few.
    Most would belong to the “Trinitarian” belief.
    However, a growing number believe in there only being one God (Deut 6:4) and that Jesus is the MAN who is the “son of God.
    I am finding as I read your material that your miss understanding is not only irritating, because it is a false premise, but it influences some of your conclusions.
    I would also suggest that Jesus said that the “sign of the prophet Jonah would be a prophecy of his death & resurrection.
    Regarding your understanding of the prophecy in Daniel regarding the weeks, I strongly recommend that you obtain ” The Unveiling of Daniel & the Apocalypse” by Sir Isaac Newton. Not only was he one of the greatest minds, but he also understood both Hebrew & Greek.
    He wrote on many reactions to scripture also.
    I find it a pity that you are ” throwing the baby out with the bathwater” due to your false premise.
    Shalom
    Carolyn Brunt.

    • hesedyahu says:

      Hello. Please provide the quote from the book that states that every single christian believes that Jesus is God. I was involved in the process of the making of the book so I’d be interested to see where exactly it makes the claim that every single person who claims to be a christian accepts Jesus as God. I know of the different flavourings of christianity, the trinitarians, the oneness doctrines, the binitarians, those that believe God is a family, those that say Jesus was a supernatural being but not as high as God, like an angel, those that say that Jesus was just a man who was the messiah. The book’s premise is not this: “the claim of christians is that Jesus was God, and therefore because he is not God, he is also not the messiah”. If you believe this, then you didn’t really understand the book. Regardless of whether christians claim that Jesus was God or that Jesus was just a man or something in between, the book’s main point is that Jesus was not the messiah and many of the central doctrines of christianity and the new testament are wrong.

      You don’t have to suggest that Jesus claimed that there was a sign of Jonah and that it represented the three days and night he would be dead and then be resurrected. You don’t have to suggest it because that’s what is written in the new testament. The only problem is that the plain reading of Jonah has nothing to do with Jesus, his death, his resurrection, or the messiah. So Jesus can claim whatever he likes, but that doesn’t mean that the Jewish Bible is saying the same thing.

      There have been a number of christian theories about Daniel, all with significant problems. My point is not to focus on the christian commentators, even the supposedly great ones, but rather the text of the Jewish Bible (which wasn’t written in Greek; I’m know you know this). So regardless of Newton, it is better to get an understanding of the Jewish Bible from those to whom the Jewish Bible was entrusted, i.e., the Jews that remained faithful to the covenant of Moses, rejecting stories and ideas about the abolition or alteration of any part of its contents.

      So no, the book isn’t about throwing the baby with the bathwater. Leaving Jesus is about comparing the Jewish Bible with claims made by later writers, and finding those claims to be wrong.

      Thanks for your time.

  5. Can you tell us more about this? I’d want to find out some
    additional information.

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