THE CHALLENGE MADE BY LEAVING JESUS
Here is my challenge to Christians or Messianics…
It seems to me that this should be a very easy challenge to meet being that the entirety of Christianity is embodied in this principle so surely there must be many scriptural passages that support this.
If you have any reason to believe that Jesus was the messiah and that he was God then you would have to believe this because you believe the Tanach told you.
According to the New Testament believing in the Messiah and his dying for your sins is the only thing that can reconcile you to YHVH and give you eternal life. Where in the Tanach is this idea presented to Israel in plain language so they would be able to know before the messiah came so that they could accept / receive / believe in him?
Remember, YHVH doesn’t desire for anyone to perish but the sinner to turn to him, so it must have been presented to them so even a little child could have been able to understand this. In other words, where is this plainly prophesied in the Tanach?
Remember also YHVH does not change and that he does not lie.
Remember the words of Jesus that unless you become like little children, you will never enter into the kingdom of God. So it must be very easy to discern and understand or a child would not be able to do it.
I posted this years ago and have never had anyone respond except to curse me and damn me to hell…
Can you respond to this challenge?
Leaving Jesus 
The reason you never receive an intelligent reply is because the answer is “NOWHERE”!
It’s hard for them to admit that. I’ve heard some say it was “hidden” until revealed in the nt, which obviously brings out your point even clearer.
I don’t even see what the challenge is quite frankly. You aren’t asking a question as far as I can see…what is the challenge exactly? I don’t have an issue with anything you’ve stated except one (and that only possibly as I may not be understanding what you mean by this statement
You wrote: “If you have any reason to believe that Jesus was the messiah and that he was God then you would have to believe this because you believe the Tanach told you.”
Me: I certainly do believe Jesus/Yeshua IS the Messiah (then and now) and that He is the Son of God, YHWH. Yes, He is also Divine or also God, but He is not the same person as His Father, YHWH. He is God because He came forth from the Father (YHWH) and has been given all things by the Father. But I do not believe Yeshua and YHWH are the same person, while I do believe Him when He said My Father and I are one. One in purpose and holiness.
So what exactly is the challenge…I just see statements.
Where in the Tanach is this idea presented to Israel in plain language so they would be able to know before the messiah came so that they could accept / receive / believe in him?
4th Paragraph in Diane –
“According to the New Testament believing in the Messiah and his dying for your sins is the only thing that can reconcile you to YHVH and give you eternal life. Where in the Tanach is this idea presented to Israel in plain language so they would be able to know before the messiah came so that they could accept / receive / believe in him?”
The question starts with “Where in the Tanach”.
I understand what you believe, but where is what is asked written?
I already responded to this challenge previously in another thread on this blog which can be found here:
In your response in the post on Facebook you say that there is no specific verse where this idea is taught to Israel. Quite an admission, I would say.
James replyed “In your response in the post on Facebook you say that there is no specific verse where this idea is taught to Israel. Quite an admission, I would say.”
I would agree! If this is not the case just give us chapter and verse. That would make it real clear. It’s important to give you sources because just saying “everyone knows” or “all the Rabbis said” does not cut it.
I do not intend to continue dialogue in this forum but I will, as a courtesy to Alan Cohen, make one further comment to James Wood’s “challenge” as follows:
“According to the New Testament believing in the Messiah and his dying for your sins is the only thing that can reconcile you to YHVH and give you eternal life. Where in the Tanach is this idea presented to Israel in plain language so they would be able to know before the messiah came so that they could accept / receive / believe in him? Remember, YHVH doesn’t desire for anyone to perish but the sinner to turn to him, so it must have been presented to them so even a little child could have been able to understand this. In other words, where is this plainly prophesied in the Tanach?”
Well, one could raise the same type of bogus “challenge” back to James concerning the “Oral Law”. The Torah says NOTHING about the existence oral law. I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.
Nevertheless, in response to James Wood’s “challenge” I have already given proof that Isaiah 53 specifically addresses and answers this challenge, that every Jewish sage, without exception, for over 1000 years believed and taught that “servant” referenced in Isaiah 53 was a reference to the suffering “Messiah” and NOT to Israel as Rashi taught. I pointed out that Chabad rabbis teach that Isaiah 53 is a reference to “Messiah” as well, and even the Rambam and the Ramban held that Rashi was wrong on his interpretation of Isaiah 53 as a reference to Israel as the “servant”. So I have completely refuted James Woods view that Isaiah 53 is a reference to Israel. Alan has asked that I give “sources” for my “proof” that every single Jewish sage for over 1000 years after the death and resurrection of Yeshua HaMashiach (until Rashi) affirmed that the “servant” of Isaiah 53 is a reference to suffering Messiah rather than to Israel. In response to Alan Cohen’s request for my “source” I reference the below two volume set published by KTAV Publishing (an Orthodox publishing house) which proves that every single Jewish sage prior to Rashi taught that Isaiah 53 is referring to the suffering “Messiah:
“The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters”, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2
Finally, I will point out in further response to James Woods “challenge”, if you are looking for another passage in the Tenach where God also teaches and commands that the Jewish people must MUST prepare for, harken to, and obey the “prophet” which He will give to them, a prophet like Moses, as Moses himself warns in Deuteronomy 18:5 concerning the “prophet” God would send to the Jewish people:
“נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן: “
“A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you and you must hearken to him”
As Dr. Michael Brown points out regarding the “prophet” Moses predicted:
“Although the passage to which Peter referred (Deut. 18:15) is not exclusively a Messianic prophecy, Peter was right on target in applying it to Yeshua. We read in Deuteronomy 18:9–22 that God promised his people he would raise up for them a prophet like Moses, someone who would hear God’s words and declare them to the people so that they would not be dependent on the superstitious practices of the surrounding nations (the ancient equivalents of things like astrology, sorcery, and séances). This prophet was to be of great importance, and God strictly warned Israel, “If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account” (Deut. 18:19).
You might say, “But doesn’t this refer to a key prophet being raised up in every generation in Israel?” I believe so. And Jesus was the last and greatest national prophet among our people, the preeminent prophet of his generation or of any other generation, the Prophet with a capital P. He predicted the terrible destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, warning of the consequences of rejecting his words. Also, because there was a conspicuous lack of prophetic voices in the centuries immediately preceding the coming of the Messiah into the world,12 the people began to look more and more for a great end-time prophet, a forerunner of the Messianic kingdom they were expecting. We know this from the Dead Sea Scrolls (4QTestimonia; cf. also 1QS 9:1) as well as from the New Testament (e.g., John 1:19–21; 7:40; see also Luke 7:16; Acts 7:37).13
When Jesus ministered on the earth, people recognized him to be a great prophet (see Luke 7:16, “ ‘A great prophet has appeared among us,’ they said. ‘God has come to help his people.’ ”). After his death and resurrection—there was no arguing with the resurrection!—Peter did not hesitate to proclaim that Yeshua was the ultimate prophet spoken of by Moses (see Acts 3:22–23). To this day, we still have not fully recovered from the destruction of the Temple and the devastation of Jerusalem, which Yeshua foretold in graphic detail (see esp. Luke 19:41–44; see also vol. 4, 5.22). And he was the prophet who foretold his own death, resurrection, and ultimate return, also assuring his followers that his message (called “the good news of the kingdom”) would spread throughout the whole world before his return, something that is being rapidly and remarkably fulfilled (see vol. 1, 2.2). We would do well to heed that prophet’s words!14
But the story doesn’t end there. Let’s take a closer look at the passage in Deuteronomy 18. Moses said to the people, “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers.… The LORD said to me: ‘… I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers’ ” (Deut. 18:15a, 17a–18a). The meaning, it seems, is fairly straightforward: Just as God raised up Moses to hear God’s words and declare them to the people of Israel, so also in the future (or in every generation), God would raise up a prophet like Moses who would also hear God’s words and declare them to the people. The problem is that according to Deuteronomy 34:10–11, “… no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land.” The identical phrase is used in both passages (namely, raising up a prophet like Moses), but we are told explicitly that no such prophet arose again in Israel’s history.15
So, Deuteronomy 18 tells us that the Lord would raise up such a prophet for his people, but Deuteronomy 34 tells us that, in the fullest sense, no such prophet arose. It is quite natural, then, that Jewish people reflecting on these Torah passages would begin to ask, “Where, then, is that prophet like Moses? Where is that leader to whom the Lord will speak face-to-face, who will work signs and wonders and deliver us from bondage?” And this passage helps to explain why there is clear evidence that the Jewish people in the first century of this era expected that there would be a great prophet associated with the Messiah or identical to the Messiah. This hope is grounded in the Torah of Moses itself.16
Finally, for examples of how Yeshua fulfills the need to be “like Moses”, I offer the following examples:
1 Both Moses and Jesus were born when Israel was under bondage (Moses in Egypt Ex.1:8,10, and Jesus during Israel’s Roman bondage. Mt.2:1,Lk.2:1-2)
2 Edicts were issued by the gentile powers of both Pharaoh and Herod for their death at birth. (Ex.2:3, Mt.2:15)
3 Both were miraculously delivered from death during their infancy from their enemies of Israel (Ex.2:3, Lk.2:7;Mt 2:14,15) and were preserved in childhood.
4 Both had been born and found in unusual places. Moses was found in the water floating in a basket of bulrushes (Ex.2:3) Jesus in a manger (cave) wrapped in burial cloths (Lk.2:7)
5 Both Moses and Jesus were protected and preserved by the faith of their parent. Moses was hidden by faith (Ex.2:2-3 and Heb.11:23) Jesus’ life was preserved by his parents obeying the message in a dream. (Mt.2:13-14)
6 Both Moses and Jesus stayed safely in Egypt for a time. Moses (Ex.2:10) Jesus dwelt safely in Egypt (Mt.2:14-15)
7 Both had their brethren and family speak against them. Moses had Mariam and Aaron speak against him taking a Cushite wife (Numb.12:1) Jesus had his family criticize and reject him (Mt.13:54-57, Jn.7:3)
8 Both Moses and Jesus were reared in the house that was not their natural parents. (Moses in the house of Pharaoh (Ex.2:10) Jesus by Mary the mother of his humanity and his stepfather Joseph.
9 Both predicted Israel’s history (Deut.28:15-28; Mt.23:34,24:1,2,8,34)
10 Both spoke out against Israel’s enemies and persecutors. (Deut.23:3-4; Mt.25:41-48)
11 Both were considered a snare to Israel (Ex10:7; 1Pt.2:8=Isa.8:14)
12 Both cleansed leprosy. From Moses’ time no one that was Jewish was cleansed until Jesus came (Numb.12:10-16, Mk.1:40-41). This is a very significant factor that proves Jesus was the prophet Moses spoke of, since no other cured one of the brethren of this disease from Moses’ time.
13 Both were used of God to feed Israel miraculously, Moses with manna in the wilderness (Ex.16:14-17) Jesus with the five loaves and two fish fed four and five thousand two times. (Mt.14:19-21) Jesus also called himself the true manna that came from heaven in Jn.6, comparing himself to the miracle that sustained Israel alive through the desert.
14 Both had the forces of nature obey them (the seas) Moses (Ex.14:21-22) Jesus (Mt.8:26-27)
15 Each had seventy helpers Moses (Num.11:16-17) Jesus ( Lk.10:1).
16 Both fasted 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness to bring a covenant to Israel. Moses on the top of Mt. Sinai (Ex.24:18, 34:28, Deut.9:9) Jesus in the desert as the Son of God (Mt.4:2)
17 Both had a face to face relationship with God unlike any other person. Moses (Ex.33:9-11, Deut.34:10; Numb.12:7-8) Jesus was with God=face to face from eternity (Jn.1:1,18)
18 God spoke audibly and directly from heaven to both Moses and Jesus. Moses (Ex.20:22, 24:12-16) Jesus (Mt.3:17; Jn.12:28)
19 Both were God’s spokesman to and for the people. Moses (Ex.9:35; Numb.12:2) Jesus (Heb.1:1-3). They Spoke as oracles of God (Moses Deut. 18:18) Jesus (Jn.14:24, 5:24)
20 Both Moses and Jesus reflected and shown the glory of God. Moses reflected his glory temporarily. (Ex.34:29-35; 2 Cor.3:7-14) Jesus at the transfiguration, his face shown brighter than the sun revealing his true nature (Mt.17:2; Jn.1:14)
21 Both were known for their humility and meekness as God’s servants. Moses (Numb.12:3) Jesus (Mt.11:29; Phil.2:3-8)
22 Both contended with masters of deception and darkness Moses with Pharaohs magicians (Ex 7:11, 1 Tim.3:8) Jesus with the Devil (Mt 4:1).
23 Both prayed for the people intercessory prayers and were willing to bear the consequences of the people’s sins. Moses asked to be blotted out of the book of life for the peoples sake (Ex.32:32-33). Jesus asked for them to be kept from falling away (Jn. 17:9-17). Jesus asked for those to be forgiven while he bore the consequences in their stead. (Lk.23:34, 2 Cor.5:19, 1 Pt.2:21-24, Isa.53:8)
24 Both Moses and Jesus were rejected by their own brethren for a time and accepted by the gentiles. Moses (Ex.2:14-22, 32:1) Jesus was rejected by his own people and received by another who were not his own. (Isa.53:3; Mt.12:21; Mk.6:4; Lk.20:9-17, Rom.11:20)
25 Both Moses and Jesus established a priesthood. Moses began the Aaronic priesthood which was temporary under the law (Lev.9; Numb.8:20-26; Heb.9:19-22). Jesus established a eternal priesthood under the new covenant of grace which He alone functions as the high priest forever. (Heb.7:17,19,23,25-28; 9:12)
26 Both sprinkled the blood of the covenant on the altar and the people. Moses (Ex.24:7-8; Lev.8:19) Jesus (Heb.9,12:24; 1Pt.1:2)
27 Both were sent by God to reveal His name, person and law to the people. To Moses God said to tell them I Am sent you. (Ex.3:13-14) Jesus said God sent him as his exact representative revealing his name (I Am) and nature to the people. (Jn.8:42; 17:6,11-12; Col.2:9; Heb.1:3)
28 Both were involved in giving the covenant to the people Jn.1:17 the law came through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” At the feast of Pentecost Moses gave the law. At the feast (Pentecost) in the new covenant Jesus gave the Holy Spirit (Acts 2).
29 Both brought deliverance to the Jewish people. Those who followed Moses out of the bondage of slavery to Egypt. (Ex.3:7-8,10;12:31-33,42) Jesus brought people out of a greater bondage, slavery to sin. (Rom.3:24-25,6:6-7,8:2-4; Eph.1:7;Heb.9:26)
30 Both had an angel guard their graves. After Moses died Michael the Arch-angel guarded his body. (Jude 9) And when Jesus rose an angel guarded his tomb. (Mt.26:2-6)
31 Both re-appeared after they died, Moses ( Mt 17:3 with Jesus before his death) Jesus (Acts 1:3)
Again, as Dr. Michael Brown further points out in his excellent work entitled “Answering Jewish Objections”,
“Rabbi Shmuel Butman, a Lubavitcher leader in “the Rebbe is the Moshiach” movement,27 answered the question, “Why must we look forward to the coming of the Moshiach?” as follows:
… In the opening paragraph of his laws about the Moshiach (Hilchos Melachim 11:1), Rambam states:
“… Whoever does not believe in him [the Moshiach], or does not look forward to his coming, denies not only the other prophets but the Torah and Moshe, our Teacher, for the Torah attested concerning him [the Moshiach] …” (and he goes on to quote verses in the Torah that refer to the Moshiach).
This is a remarkable halachic ruling. Even one who firmly believes in the coming of the Moshiach, yet his belief is no more than a dispassionate agreement that Moshiach eventually will come, not only does not fulfill his obligation; the Rambam rules that he actually denies the entire Torah and the authority of Moshe Rabbeinu, through whom G-d gave the Torah!28
In light of all this, it makes perfect sense that Isaiah 52:13–53:12, the most famous Messianic prophecy in the Bible (see objections 4.5–4.17) begins with the words, “See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted,” but then asks immediately (53:1), “Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” That is the million-dollar question—to put it lightly.”
So all this is just further “proof”, in response to James Wood’s “challenge”, that Yeshua is the Messiah predicted in the Tenach, the “one” to whom the Jewish people must harken and obey.
Although he may not agree with my response to his “challenge”, James can no longer honestly claim that no one has ever responded to his challenge.
Finally, I now challenge James Woods to show me where in the Tenach the “Oral Law” is ever stated to exist.
Terry,
I have read your “hit and run” response. I call it this because of this statement you make.
“I do not intend to continue dialogue in this forum but I will, as a courtesy to Alan Cohen, make one further comment to James Wood’s “challenge” as follows:”
When one reads the Tanach one must remember the words of Moses, which you seem to have little regard for. The Torah is the lens that we must examine any writings through.
Moses was clear that any prophet that spoke for YHVH must agree with the words of the Torah or we are to reject not only their words but the prophet himself. When Isaiah penned the words of his prophecy he made sure that he agreed with the Torah. Here are points Christians and Messianics forget when trying to read into his “53 rd” Chapter.
1) God abhors human sacrifice.
2) Sacrifices must be done according to the Torah. The fact that Jesus was beaten and blemished by the cruelty of his captors is enough to disqualify him being sacrificed.
3) The soul that sins shall die. Even Moses was taught that one can’t die for another.
4) God cannot die. If a man cannot die for another man’s sin, Christians must invent the idea that only a deity can. BUT because YHVH cannot die in any sense of the word… Well, you figure it out.
These three principles must be adhered to. The New Testament disregards these. This is reason enough to throw out Jesus’ sacrifice. Of course, you will ignore what I have written so far, so, let me continue.
Isaiah 53 as found in Goyish translations may seem to support Christian beliefs but any serious Hebrew student will immediately know that this Christian idea isn’t anything more than ridiculous. I concur. I wrote about this extensively in my book. By the way, I am not concerned with what anyone or anything other than the Hebrew text itself says. You have wasted your time try to egg me on about the oral law and and distract us from the only thing that matters; The Hebrew Text.
I AGAIN, encourage you to read my book especially the Chapter on Isaiah 53 before you return with any response. Although I have tried to get you to accept YHVH’S words at face value as revealed in the Hebrew Text, which does not support any of Christianity’s ridiculous assertions, you seem to bound to some other revelation.
I am trying to understand exactly what your point is in this statement…
“In light of all this, it makes perfect sense that Isaiah 52:13–53:12, the most famous Messianic prophecy in the Bible (see objections 4.5–4.17) begins with the words, “See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted,” but then asks immediately (53:1), “Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” That is the million-dollar question—to put it lightly.””
While this statement, “See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted” are the words of YHVH, the phrase, “Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”, are NOT! I encourage you to return to the text while asking yourself, “WHO is speaking?” Most of the statements in this passage are NOT the WORDS OF YHVH. They are the views of the Kings of the Nations… See here for more info
http://www.leavingjesus.net/book/#/34
Terry, I say this to you in all seriousness. God is testing you to see if you will accept his Torah as the final test for ANY revelation. Do well and you will be accepted.
James Wood
Why am I not surprised by Terry’s reply?
Ask a question specifically requesting the answer to be from the Tanach, and receive an answer quoting Rabbi’s!
Terry, you put sooo much credence in the words of the Sages and Rabbi’s. Maybe you can show me where one of these “1000’s” have stated that jesus was this servant and/or messiah? I mean really, there were 1000’s of them and they had such insight as to come up with the idea that Isaiah 53 can relate to a “suffering messiah” and since it is so clear in your opinion that Isaiah 53 relates to jesus, there must be ONE in all of the writings you reference that saw things your way.
Or did the Sages/Rabbi’s have multiple opinions and views of who this servant may be? Did they specifically say it was ONE person, or could be figurative of several people?
Don’t just take out the part that fits your agenda Terry, quote in context what the Sages/Rabbi’s thought, not just a portion.
And your “claim” that Rashi was the one who started the thought that Israel as a people is the servant can be refuted as well. Here is a quote from an early church “father” Origen (185 CE to 254 CE) who wrote in Contra Celsus Book 1 Chapter 55:
“Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.”
This shows that Jews, debating Chirstians back in the 2nd century of the common era, told Christians that the servant was ISRAEL, way before Rashi.
In reference to Deuteronomy 18, I don’t see how one can relate a prophet as G-d. Either you believe Jesus was a god, or you believe he was a prophet. I don’t not see one prophet in the entire Tanach that is G-d. There is NO reference in Deuteronomy 18 that this prophet that will be raised up is G-d. You made that up because it clearly is NOT in the text.
And in my opinion, it is quite foolish to use your “comparisons” of Jesus to Moses. Or as many Christians do, compare Jesus to other people in the Tanach. Using that logic, I can give you just a long a list if not longer of how Jesus’s life compares “strikingly” to many Pagan gods.
So yes, you have “responded” to James’s challenge, I’ll give you that. But your response’s do not answer the challenge.
As far as your challenge is concerned, I’ll answer as direct as possible. The “Oral Law” is not directly mentioned in the Tanach as “The Oral Law”. Quite frankly, that is why it was “Oral”, because it wasn’t written. But you can see clear signs that there was an Oral Law to explain G-d’s commandments. I’ll give you 2 examples –
The “Law” was given to Moses to give to the people of Israel in the 5 Books of Moses. Do we agree? The prophets just “reinforced” the laws.
So let’s take a look at Jeremiah 17, verse 21-22.
21-So said the Lord: Beware for your souls and carry no burden on the Sabbath day, nor bring into the gates of Jerusalem. 22 – Neither shall you take a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day nor shall you perform any labor, and you shall hallow the Sabbath day as I commanded your forefathers.
Where did this come from? It certainly isn’t written in the 5 Books of Moses! There must have been a part of the Law that wasn’t written then. That would make it “oral”.
How about Nehemiah 10:32?
“And as for the peoples of the land who bring merchandise and all grains on the Sabbath day to sell-we shall not purchase from them on the Sabbath or on holy days, and we shall abandon [the land] during the seventh year [and] the loan given by every hand.”
Whoa, look at that! We are not to “purchase from them on the Sabbath day”. Where is that “written” in the 5 books of Moses? It isn’t, so it must have been passed on “orally”.
So even though your challenge is directed to James, I thought I would offer my own response to your challenge.
James,
It looks like you are correct again – another “hit and run”.
It’s amazing how someone will come here to post a reply that is quite long, doesn’t really answer your questions and is loaded with missionizing only to run when confronted with the true facts.
But, I guess we should be used to that by now. Especially since people have been doing it for thousands of years!
What happened to Diane? Another “hit and run”?
I have a challenge as well.
Here it is –
According to the Hebrew Bible, is there more than one way to be forgiven for your sins?
Could you be a little more specific in your question? What type of sin are you referring to? Intentional or unintentional? Have you read my book or the section on sin and atonement?
James,
Yes, I did read your book although I must admit it was several months ago.
The question is addressed to Christians and I purposely left it in its “general” state to hopefully further the conversation. When most Christians speak of “sin” they do not look into the Hebrew bible where it shows different types of sin. I don’t even think they realize there are several Hebrew words for sin, each having its own aspect.
So my challenge was focused on their “claim” that only by the “shedding of blood” is there remission for sin.
Silence, as usual
Years now… silence.
Yawn………………………..
I wrote Terry and re responded to me:
Dear Terry,
Regarding your response while I see that you think you responded to his challenge but I could not find in what you wrote an answer to the challenge. Let’s be clear on what that challenge was and also let’s understand that a non answer and a re-challenge is not an answer.
Here was the challenge:
“Where in the Tanach is this idea presented to Israel in plain language so they would be able to know before the messiah came so that they could accept / receive / believe in him?”
It takes a simple answer of “chapter and verse”! Than you can copy the words from the chapter and verse so we can see exactly what the words are that meet the challenge.
Or you can say it’s not there!
That is a answer!
Writing a thousand words ” off topic” or “giving a challenge back” is a non answer and that why other people on the blog said you ran away from the challenge without answering the challenge.
Alan
PS. I have copied the challenge from the blog so you will have before you the clear and simple challenge in context.
THE CHALLENGE MADE BY LEAVING JESUS
Here is my challenge to Christians or Messianics…
It seems to me that this should be a very easy challenge to meet being that the entirety of Christianity is embodied in this principle so surely there must be many scriptural passages that support this.
If you have any reason to believe that Jesus was the messiah and that he was God then you would have to believe this because you believe the Tanach told you.
According to the New Testament believing in the Messiah and his dying for your sins is the only thing that can reconcile you to YHVH and give you eternal life. Where in the Tanach is this idea presented to Israel in plain language so they would be able to know before the messiah came so that they could accept / receive / believe in him?
Terry Responded:
Greetings Alan,
Regarding James Wood’s challenge, although you may not agree, in my view, I did answer his challenge. Here is James’s challenge in two parts:
1) According to the New Testament believing in the Messiah and his dying for your sins is the only thing that can reconcile you to YHVH and give you eternal life.
2) Where in the Tanach is this idea presented to Israel in plain language so they would be able to know before the messiah came so that they could accept / receive / believe in him?
Here is how I responded to his challenge:
1) As James requested, I demonstrated (from the Tenach, Isaiah 53) that “the Messiah and his dying for your sins” was predicted in the Tenach ( i.e., the coming of the suffering Messiah and the Messiah’s suffering and death for the sins of Israel).
2) I went even further and demonstrated (again, from the Tenach, Deuteronomy 18) that Moses predicted that God would send Israel a prophet, one like himself, and that the people of Israel would be required to hear and obey that prophet or suffer the consequences. I argued from scripture that Yeshua was the “ultimate” fulfillment of that prophecy by Moses. More evidence could be given demonstrating that Yeshua fulfilled other prophecies could be given (from the Tenach) evidencing that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah but that would be for a different discussion.
So again, Alan, as far as I am concerned I very clearly “answered” James challenge and I am now finished dialoguing with him. James and his friends on his blog may not agree, and/or may simply not want to acknowledge that his challenge has been answered so they can keep up the illusion that no one is able to answer his challenge, either way that is their choice. In my view, their unwillingness to admit that the challenge has been answered demonstrates a lack of honesty and integrity on their part, which further disinclines me to any additional dialogue with them.
My love to you and Bonnie,
Terry
Alan,
I see Terry has missed the heart of the challenge. He still has not told us where the Tanach teaches us to believe in / accept a messiah for forgiveness of sins. Even “Isaiah 53” does not teach this. Any serious Hebrew student can see through this argument.
Surely, there is a blindness that is on the Messianics and Christians that have to purposely ignore the plain meanings of the Hebrew words found in Isaiah 53 to come to these conclusions.
It would be more honest just to admit that they trust Jesus’ words than YHVH’s…
Of course, instead, we here at Leaving Jesus are pegged as being dishonest… but this is not a new accusation against us…
So let’s see.
The challenge is finding a place in the Tanach where it clearly states ‘believing in the Messiah and his dying for your sins is the only thing that can reconcile you to YHVH and give you eternal life.
Part of the reply was Isaiah 53. where does it say in Isaiah 53 believing in the Messiah and his dying for your sins is the only thing that can reconcile you to YHVH and give you eternal life. I don’t want “piecemeal” verses that talk about dying and sin. I want an answer to the complete challenge. Where it also includes reconciliation with G-d and eternal life.
The other part of the reply was Deuteronomy 18. Again, where does it say in Deuteronomy 18 believing in the Messiah and his dying for your sins is the only thing that can reconcile you to YHVH and give you eternal life.
In both Isaiah 53 and Deuteronomy 18 I see nothing about reconciling with G-d or eternal life.
So yes, an answer was given, but it was incomplete.
Then, there was a challenge directed at James referring to the Oral Law. I answered that challenge quite clearly, but see no response. So I guess silence is golden and my answer is correct. Thank you!
Hello,The person that dies for his sin is the one who doesnot repent,but if you repent you need atonment,like the sacrifical laws,so these laws and all the torah laws applied until the coming of Jesus but after that God changed the covenant.Why? Because, the old covenant was broken by its followers.JEREMIAH 31:31″‘The time is coming’,declares the lord,”when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.32It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,because they broke my covenant,though I was a husband to them” declares the Lord.
What about Isaiah 53.I recomend you to read it .but,for my case,let me show you a verse from it.ISAIAH 53:1O “Yet it was the LORD’S Will to crush him and cause him to suffer,and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering,”
now,you tell me who is it talking about?It is talking about a man being a guilt offering and that man is Jesus.AMEN.
Can you show me where it says the covenant was changed and that now we must believe in a messiah… You have not answered the challenge. I wrote an entire chapter in my book explaining why Isaiah 53 isn’t about Jesus. Maybe you should read it before you tell me to read Isaiah 53 like I haven’t already addressed it. You can read it here for free… http://www.leavingjesus.net/book/#/34